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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by miloVanMultistrada View Post
    The BMW C1 is the kind of thing that will remove most of your cycling objections - and appeal to the pure "a to b"er rather than the hardened motorcyclist.
    And therein lies the problem - on the continent (admittedly where the weather is better), scooter use is rife, and the C1 sold well. Most people are car drivers, or have no passion to be a motorbiker - but they know that 2 wheels is the quickest and most convenient way to get/park anywhere, and it's cheap too. Especially when they don't even need to get wet or wear a helmet (C1). And most importantly - it's classless, socially acceptable and even fashionable.

    If Ducati made a scooter with the same ethos and attention to performance/detail that it made the Diavel with, it would sell more scooter in the EU than it could make, even if they cost 500 more than the equivalent benchmark (a Honda, I suspect).

    I think the UK is still backward in this regard; scooter ownership is merely for the working class riff raff. Someone who can't afford a car. Which is a real shame, and our transport situation won't improve until people 'get it'.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by miloVanMultistrada View Post
    The cold and raining one applies to quite a few motorcyclists as well, although it has to be said, it's much easier to ride a motorcycle in effective wet / cold weather gear than it is to ride a bicycle.



    My question to the panel is... how much should we be investing in separate infrastructure, when things like scooters can use what exists already at no cost to the taxpayer (and in fact be generating tax income via fuel and road tax)? What would happen I wonder if we gave fuel efficient powered two wheeled transport the kind of tax breaks that bicycles enjoy?

    The BMW C1 is the kind of thing that will remove most of your cycling objections - and appeal to the pure "a to b"er rather than the hardened motorcyclist. Which brings us to an interesting point - are the only people who cycle to work often - the "hardcore" - and is it a case of diminishing returns chasing another few % with ever increasing amounts of money and legislation. What if the majority of people have no interest in cycling to work, and we are unlikely to enjoy the participation rates of the poster boy of the cycling nation - the Netherlands - as it's largely flat, enjoys milder weather than somewhere like Scotland or northern England?
    electric powered vehicles (2 or 4 wheel) already have tax breaks in VED (road tax hasnt been around since the 1930's) the problem is that they didn't band motorcycles based on emissions like cars , not sure I'd want to go down that route as we'd end up with a scenario whereby high power bikes like Ducati's would be paying large amounts like high powered cars now do . I pay 260 a year for a 185HP car, I'd imagine a 170HP SBK would be rated the same!

    A lot on where the future lies also links to what our economy can sustain, we've been through 30 years of artificial growth based on a reduction in manufacturing and service led growth, less factories, more commuting, more retail/distribution. That is going to alter, we wont have the money to do what we have been doing and as it tightens up attitudes change. As that happens people look for cheaper alternatives, its interesting working in the emerging economy of Taiwan/China, one sees the move from bicycle to scooter then to car, its all directly linked to wealth. In the UK we went from everyone cycling to work and using pedal bikes for holidays in the 30 - 50's, the growth in motorcycles allowing more of the population to travel further in 50's and60's and into the car era of 70's and then cars/motorbikes as leisure toys as they are used by some now. If one looks at that cycling use in the 50's it wasn't affected by weather, wasnt linked to interest it was driven by a need to travel cheaply. As our economy grew so did personal wealth and the cost of powered vehicles reduced proportionality to that, thats probably about to change again, disposable income is reducing at the same time vehicle prices and running costs are increasing, so far it doesn't seem to have altered traffic though with only a 1% drop in traffic volumes in the first quarter of this year despite high fuel prices but eventually it has to.


    We'll never return to the lifestyle of the 50's but we are moving to a situation where the cost of travel will dictate what gets used and its directly linked to income. Its also linked to the way we build houses and workplaces, journey distances are greater now but if you co-ordinate your transport network and put cycle lanes in people will use them. thats where the joint motor/cycle solution falls down, what is actually needed is the ability to get to stations or MRT/bus systems and either transport a bike or store a bike so any investment needs to be carried out in conjunction with that. Should that system also allow powered 2 wheel use, yes, electric and restricted speed motor could share routes what you need to avoid is a disparity in speed/size of vehicle and to make sure its safe. How you integrate scooters into any other system i'm not sure so maybe the routes wouldn't even need to be the same .

    As regards the comment on hardcore, you just need to go into London at 8.30am and watch any traffic light as it turns red, the cyclists build up and majority aren't what I'd consider serious cyclists, they commute by bike because its cheap and quick not because of a love of cycling. same thing with the way the Boris bikes get used, people just want to get around time quickly and cheaply and its growing which suggests that the investment is not a diminishing return.....


    How much should one invest in the future? a lot more than we are now thats for certain
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
    As regards the comment on hardcore, you just need to go into London at 8.30am and watch any traffic light as it turns red, the cyclists build up and majority aren't what I'd consider serious cyclists, they commute by bike because its cheap and quick not because of a love of cycling. same thing with the way the Boris bikes get used, people just want to get around time quickly and cheaply and its growing which suggests that the investment is not a diminishing return.....
    I used to live in London and in the winter cyclists are pretty thin on the ground.

    This creates another problem. The fair weather cyclists will expect road / public transport capacity when they are not using their bikes. So the public transport infrastructure (run by private companies) gets extra problems coping with fluctuating demand. Commute into London from the suburbs even in the 'summer' and you'll notice the trains are packed tighter on wet days.

    So you take up resources (not to mention space on the road) to enable cycling, but then that is barely used for 6 months of the year. This is my point - that money could be better spent improving the capacity of the trains and buses and keeping the road network in good condition for all road users, rather than dedicated facilities for a very small number of them.

    While cycling in London diminishes in the winter, it stops dead in Carnoustie!

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by miloVanMultistrada View Post
    I used to live in London and in the winter cyclists are pretty thin on the ground.

    This creates another problem. The fair weather cyclists will expect road / public transport capacity when they are not using their bikes. So the public transport infrastructure (run by private companies) gets extra problems coping with fluctuating demand. Commute into London from the suburbs even in the 'summer' and you'll notice the trains are packed tighter on wet days.

    So you take up resources (not to mention space on the road) to enable cycling, but then that is barely used for 6 months of the year. This is my point - that money could be better spent improving the capacity of the trains and buses and keeping the road network in good condition for all road users, rather than dedicated facilities for a very small number of them.

    While cycling in London diminishes in the winter, it stops dead in Carnoustie!


    its a complicated equation and as I keep saying involves a structured approach with joined up thinking, its crazy to me that I could live 1 mile away from a metro station on Tyneside 8 miles from work, both easy to pedal and even in winter I'd do so but got to station I then cant get my bike on a train which would do the majority of the journey when the weather is bad, so you are right there are other places to spend cash but if you do so join it up and integrate it. thats what a transport policy is not bits taken in isolation or one user group crying that another gets better funding

    look at some of the crazy spend we, 3/4 bn for 5 miles of motorway WTF, that could of been used to fund miles of alternatives but its get ploughed at the car, that needs to change and be spread to alternative/public transport but that needs to include bikes as well as scooters and pedestrians

    I'm not bothered how goals are achieved if its at the expense of cars or motorbikes so be it, much as i like owning both there is already more than adequate provision and I feel safe using them, I don't when i try and use my pedal bike for a journey.......
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  5. #25
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    the C1 (an ugly thing if ever there was) was designed to be ridden helmetless as it was safer this way, but if you rode it like that in this country, you stood to be prosecuted as it was still classed as a motorcycle, so therefor a helmet must be worn at all times even though that made it MORE dangerous. This shows the stupid thinking in general towards two wheeled transport in this country.

    I believe that in the lake district there is a scheme where by 16year olds can get a grant towards a scooter to provide them transport to and from work etc. I dont know the full criteria for it , but its the only area in britain offering this.

    To the best off my knowledge, providing cycle lanes etc is still by a long shot, the most expensive way per passenger mile of travelling than any other option. While i can see the point of a lot of the improvements for cycling, some are a waste of time in certain places. I live in a small country town outside Edinburgh and we have those advance stop boxes for cyclists at the traffic lights. Theyve been there id guess about 8 or 9 years and during that time they have been repainted at least once. I'm not saying I'm there evryday at rush hour, but i would say im there most days as its part of my daily commute and i have only ever seen one that is 1 cyclist using them in all that time. I'm not saying there havent been more, I'm only saying thats my experience. I know to prevent fines from europe (which we are probably the only ones stupid enough to pay) we have to meet targets to encourage cyclists, but when these things are not effective and not being used whats the point, surely the money would be better spent educating drivers while their learning to drive on their responsibilities towards cyclists and other road users, than miles and miles of underused road markings, just so we can tick a box in europe somewhere.

    By the way everyone i think knows my dislike of cycling and cyclist in general, but this thread wasnt started to knock cyclists. it was meant to knock pressure groups and the governments who listen to them
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gordj65 View Post
    the C1 (an ugly thing if ever there was) was designed to be ridden helmetless as it was safer this way, but if you rode it like that in this country, you stood to be prosecuted as it was still classed as a motorcycle, so therefor a helmet must be worn at all times even though that made it MORE dangerous. This shows the stupid thinking in general towards two wheeled transport in this country.

    I believe that in the lake district there is a scheme where by 16year olds can get a grant towards a scooter to provide them transport to and from work etc. I dont know the full criteria for it , but its the only area in britain offering this.

    To the best off my knowledge, providing cycle lanes etc is still by a long shot, the most expensive way per passenger mile of travelling than any other option. While i can see the point of a lot of the improvements for cycling, some are a waste of time in certain places. I live in a small country town outside Edinburgh and we have those advance stop boxes for cyclists at the traffic lights. Theyve been there id guess about 8 or 9 years and during that time they have been repainted at least once. I'm not saying I'm there evryday at rush hour, but i would say im there most days as its part of my daily commute and i have only ever seen one that is 1 cyclist using them in all that time. I'm not saying there havent been more, I'm only saying thats my experience. I know to prevent fines from europe (which we are probably the only ones stupid enough to pay) we have to meet targets to encourage cyclists, but when these things are not effective and not being used whats the point, surely the money would be better spent educating drivers while their learning to drive on their responsibilities towards cyclists and other road users, than miles and miles of underused road markings, just so we can tick a box in europe somewhere.

    By the way everyone i think knows my dislike of cycling and cyclist in general, but this thread wasnt started to knock cyclists. it was meant to knock pressure groups and the governments who listen to them
    Er, you'll find that councils had a target for alternatives to car/motor if they wanted to build more roads it wasnt an EU target for cycle lanes!, many chose to take the cheap option and paint lines down roads, many of which are unsafe and not actually what was needed and cyclists hate them as much as anyone else! Councils don't always consult the cycling lobby! Government has a policy to reduce Co2 emissions and are failing to met it, try reading http://www.sustrans.org.uk/assets/fi...ugust_2011.pdf and you'll see it is for bikes, pedestrians and public transport (smarter travel choice ). they arent spending enough on it and what they do isnt always applied int he best way.

    take a read of this page http://www.sustrans.org.uk/about-sus...greener-travel then follow the links at the bottom. try the meeting carbon targets report, page 189 on is linked to motor vehicle and see where electric fits, theres little mention of cycling in it nor pedestrians hence why the likes of sustrans lobby!

    Organisations like sustrans aren't just for bikes its about sustainable transport and as i keep saying we need an integrated policy which gives safe routes to links with other transport like bus/tram/MRT and with space to put bikes on them and many cyclists would rather see funds applied to that not painted lines down roads. Personally I'd rather see safe routes to schools, reducing the mum and kids using car school trip run it would have a major impact on traffic density at peak times, it actually involves very little mileage of cycle route but would have big benefits and I get frustrated when i see councils waste money on useless cycle lanes


    We need pressure groups like Sustrans, if we dont we'll get more wasted cash, it needs to be directed where its needed by user groups not politicians!
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
    Er, you'll find that councils had a target for alternatives to car/motor if they wanted to build more roads it wasnt an EU target for cycle lanes!, many chose to take the cheap option and paint lines down roads, many of which are unsafe and not actually what was needed and cyclists hate them as much as anyone else! Councils don't always consult the cycling lobby! Government has a policy to reduce Co2 emissions and are failing to met it, try reading http://www.sustrans.org.uk/assets/fi...ugust_2011.pdf and you'll see it is for bikes, pedestrians and public transport (smarter travel choice ). they arent spending enough on it and what they do isnt always applied int he best way.

    take a read of this page http://www.sustrans.org.uk/about-sus...greener-travel then follow the links at the bottom. try the meeting carbon targets report, page 189 on is linked to motor vehicle and see where electric fits, theres little mention of cycling in it nor pedestrians hence why the likes of sustrans lobby!

    Organisations like sustrans aren't just for bikes its about sustainable transport and as i keep saying we need an integrated policy which gives safe routes to links with other transport like bus/tram/MRT and with space to put bikes on them and many cyclists would rather see funds applied to that not painted lines down roads. Personally I'd rather see safe routes to schools, reducing the mum and kids using car school trip run it would have a major impact on traffic density at peak times, it actually involves very little mileage of cycle route but would have big benefits and I get frustrated when i see councils waste money on useless cycle lanes


    We need pressure groups like Sustrans, if we dont we'll get more wasted cash, it needs to be directed where its needed by user groups not politicians!
    i remember vaugely the sustrans report into the tram fiasco (I,m fairly sure they supported the proposed road pricing) in edinburgh, before it all started and was disgusted by what i read, since then i have never trusted anything they said. perhaps they are better now
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gordj65 View Post
    i remember vaugely the sustrans report into the tram fiasco (I,m fairly sure they supported the proposed road pricing) in edinburgh, before it all started and was disgusted by what i read, since then i have never trusted anything they said. perhaps they are better now
    they did a report into how the trams integrated with the cycle network and were critical of the way little provision had been made for cycles, closeness of trans to cycle ways and compared edinburgh's system to other tram systems, exactly what any pressure group should do, the outcome might not be what you like but the fact is they got involved, did the report and tried to change things. http://www.edinburghtrams.com/includ...nal_Report.pdf

    Its a long report but shows the way they do things, its well put together, uses real experience and highlights problems. one of the final sections focus on the need to train cyclists to adapt tot he trams so itsthey recognise that its not the tram/councils problem its also cyclists responsibility. report on all that running on Spokes http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/2...ice-documents/. Its not my area of expertise, i know a bit about it as I'm interested in the integration of bikes and public transport ie getting bikes on trains and buses so i had to ask a mate at sustrans to help me with it but i think you can see that its not backing the trams nor is it saying don't do it, its just trying to find a way to fit bikes into what ever happens.

    its also got some real useful stats on stuff like safe routes to schools, 94% of kids have a bike yet schools dont encourage them to ride because of the density of traffic, FFS surely any cycle money could go to sorting that out?, kids love bikes, love the freedom it gives them yet get discouraged from riding by their school, madness.

    Final one try reading this http://www.sustrans.org.uk/assets/fi...eed_100301.pdf it shows where a lot of cyclists want action directed, aimed at journeys under 5 miles so no need for miles and miles of white painted line cycle lanes which don't get used, focus on where its needed and make them safe. which is back to where we started reducing cycling casualties........
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
    they did a report into how the trams integrated with the cycle network and were critical of the way little provision had been made for cycles, closeness of trans to cycle ways and compared edinburgh's system to other tram systems, exactly what any pressure group should do, the outcome might not be what you like but the fact is they got involved, did the report and tried to change things. http://www.edinburghtrams.com/includ...nal_Report.pdf

    Its a long report but shows the way they do things, its well put together, uses real experience and highlights problems. one of the final sections focus on the need to train cyclists to adapt tot he trams so itsthey recognise that its not the tram/councils problem its also cyclists responsibility. report on all that running on Spokes http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/2...ice-documents/. Its not my area of expertise, i know a bit about it as I'm interested in the integration of bikes and public transport ie getting bikes on trains and buses so i had to ask a mate at sustrans to help me with it but i think you can see that its not backing the trams nor is it saying don't do it, its just trying to find a way to fit bikes into what ever happens.

    its also got some real useful stats on stuff like safe routes to schools, 94% of kids have a bike yet schools dont encourage them to ride because of the density of traffic, FFS surely any cycle money could go to sorting that out?, kids love bikes, love the freedom it gives them yet get discouraged from riding by their school, madness.

    Final one try reading this http://www.sustrans.org.uk/assets/fi...eed_100301.pdf it shows where a lot of cyclists want action directed, aimed at journeys under 5 miles so no need for miles and miles of white painted line cycle lanes which don't get used, focus on where its needed and make them safe. which is back to where we started reducing cycling casualties........
    unfortunatly its not just the schools who put the kids off, my lad used to take his chopper to school (the push bike one not the helicopter before anyone says) it was vandalised by other kids. took his Kona stinky and they tried to steal it . and his isnt a bad school, just the sort of arseholes you get nowadays

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gizmo View Post
    its a complicated equation and as I keep saying involves a structured approach with joined up thinking, its crazy to me that I could live 1 mile away from a metro station on Tyneside 8 miles from work, both easy to pedal and even in winter I'd do so but got to station I then cant get my bike on a train which would do the majority of the journey when the weather is bad, so you are right there are other places to spend cash but if you do so join it up and integrate it. thats what a transport policy is not bits taken in isolation or one user group crying that another gets better funding

    look at some of the crazy spend we, 3/4 bn for 5 miles of motorway WTF, that could of been used to fund miles of alternatives but its get ploughed at the car, that needs to change and be spread to alternative/public transport but that needs to include bikes as well as scooters and pedestrians

    I'm not bothered how goals are achieved if its at the expense of cars or motorbikes so be it, much as i like owning both there is already more than adequate provision and I feel safe using them, I don't when i try and use my pedal bike for a journey.......
    Announced in today's Scotland On Sunday that bicycles will be carried on buses for the first time in Scotland by FirstGroup as part of an experiment.
    Bicycles will initially be carried foc but a 1 charge may be levied in time. Scotrail currently doesn't charge on trains for transporting bicycles.
    Long distance coaches carry bikes in the under floor luggage compartments but First is believed to be only bus carrier in Scotland to start offering a service where bikes will be able to be wheeled on.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike the Bike View Post
    Announced in today's Scotland On Sunday that bicycles will be carried on buses for the first time in Scotland by FirstGroup as part of an experiment.
    Bicycles will initially be carried foc but a 1 charge may be levied in time. Scotrail currently doesn't charge on trains for transporting bicycles.
    Long distance coaches carry bikes in the under floor luggage compartments but First is believed to be only bus carrier in Scotland to start offering a service where bikes will be able to be wheeled on.
    thanks for that just found the link http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...and.6826577.jp would still prefer to see racks on front of buses like Phoenix have, its bad when the US leads us on making it easy to avoid using a car
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